interview by Mayumi Nakazawa
photographs by Philip Gostelow

Mansai has taken on the mantle with a vengeance. He's appeared in a Kurosawa film, TV commercials for Nescafe and Parco, played Hamlet and a leading role in NHK's period drama. He spent one year in England, studying Shakespeare and doing workshops. But his true passion is the 1000-year-old performing art that started as a humorous interlude between noh acts.

In late January, when this interview was conducted, Mansai had just returned from a nationwide tour, commemorating his succession to the name "Mansai," which belonged to his legendary great-grandfather. He carries himself with all the sophistication of his illustrious family breeding, obviously proud of his unique calling. He is a new age kyogen actor with his feet firmly planted in the classical tradition but his mind is fully aware of the possibilities of other theatrical genres.

You lived in the U.K. recently, where you studied with the Royal Shakespeare Company. How long were you there?

Exactly 350 days. That was the length of the Agency of Cultural Affairs program.

Have you always been interested in Shakespeare?

It goes deeper than just interest. Shakespeare and I have a special bond. For example, my first film appearance was at 17, in Kurosawa's Ran which was based on King Lear. I've done Hamlet, too. And The Tempest with director Robert Lepage. And I've done the kyogen play Horazamurai which is an adaptation of The Merry Wives of Windsor. Those four experiences made me feel that kyogen and Shakespeare have something very much in common as classical theater.

Can you give me some specifics?

First, I think that both have class systems at their core. It is very evident in the traditional stories of kyogen. The class difference can result in humorous moments; say, when a servant makes fun of his master. A class system doesn't really exist in modern Japan, though I feel the system is very much alive today in England. I'm not saying that I'm a fan of the class system, but it does bring variety and potential to drama.

Any other things in common?

Another similarity is that Shakespeare wrote mostly in blank verse, which must be performed in a very steady, rhythmical way. Kyogen has the same beauty in its style as Shakespeare. In saying our lines, we are not only concerned with the emotional content, but with the tone and the pronunciation. Performers who have perfected the technical aspects of Shakespeare would find kyogen very similar, and vice versa. And since comedy is everywhere in Shakespeare--even in his tragedies--that's also a very common point. I think many kyogen performers yearn to do tragedy.

But it's impossible to do tragedy in kyogen.

I know. Our tradition has been solely based on comedy. It's very simple--and that's why it can give great pleasure. But kyogen actors' abilities aren't as limited as the genre itself. So in doing Shakespeare, I can find satisfaction doing something I can't usually do. At the same time, I've always been interested in how a classical, traditional art can exist as a living thing in the modern world. I was very interested in what people in England were doing to keep Shakespeare alive. But I found there were a lot of things besides Shakespeare that were very interesting.

Did you exchange acting methods with other theater groups in England?

Yes, with the very sensational group Theatre de Complicite, and others. When a very popular group like that does a workshop in Europe, actors come from all over.

And what did you learn?

You learn a lot about other cultures and countries. For example, at one workshop there was an improvisational exercise with an invisible horse. An English actor ordered the horse to dash away and return with a newspaper in its mouth. When it was my turn, I imagined a stupid horse. "How strange," I thought, and began to look inside its mouth. Then, gradually, I was swallowed by the horse. In my exercise I automatically used my whole body. But the English actor just used his head. It made me aware of how much I rely on my body.

Is that because kyogen relies so much on body movement?

That's right. We're concerned with the kata, the decided forms of movement, and we're not used to improvisation.

How did foreign actors react to your workshops on kyogen?

I think there was a lot of puzzlement at first. Western actors have been taught that it is wrong to do something exactly like someone else. That's the very root of individualism. In the end, I think we feel the same way, but in kyogen we get our start copying from the master and from models.

You start with the kata, then?

Yes. The Japanese method is to learn the kata first, then learn the spiritual, the emotional side. It's the same as carpentry, for example: first, imitate the master. So, even though the English actors could understand my words, they couldn't quite grasp the concept.

But Western ballet and classical music use the same method of imitation, don't they?

The quick ones understand the similarities between classical disciplines. But even they had a difficult time. Take the example of a mosquito being blown about by the wind. Western actors want to know the emotional aspects: "Is the mosquito sad? Or happy?" But kyogen is not an expression of emotions; it begins by expressing the beautiful kata forms.

How did you describe what kyogen is?

After going through a lot of English books on kyogen, I spent some time trying to think of a description. The best thing I was able to come up with was "human comedy."

But the word "comedy" isn't enough to describe kyogen, is it?

Not exactly. But the word "comedy" incorporates human drama, so it's enough for basic understanding. Of course, there's more to it.

What do you think they found interesting about kyogen?

Ki, the energy and concentration.

How did you explain the concept of ki?

I told them to get their backs into it, and get their spirit centered in the middle of their body. Even at lectures that didn't include workshops, I would always demonstrate the various characters along with the techniques. Because kyogen is based on kata, changing characters in an instant is not difficult for me. But Europeans who are trained in the Stanislavski method are used to just focusing on one character. So when I would change from just talking in a normal voice to one of the characters just by focusing my energy and concentrating, they were flabbergasted. I'd change from this timid hesitant speaker of English to someone who seemed to be possessed by spirits.

What about the body movement?

A lot of people commented on my physical training, on my mastering of the concepts of "silence," "concentration" and "movement." These are not the strong points of most English actors, after all. There are some fine actors with brilliant physical training, but there is no outlet for that on stage. Directors are very concerned with the emotional and the mental expression, but don't seem to bother much with physical movement.

The motivation behind the movement is a very important part of kyogen and noh.

That's true. There is a muscular reaction to anger, for example. Take a situation where an actor in a normal emotional state goes behind a panel, speaks in a low voice to someone, and reappears in a state of anger. An English actor in this situation would change his tone of voice and expression to communicate a state of anger, but few would change the state of their body. But there are physical reactions to anger: your pulse increases, your blood pressure rises, muscles tighten. Your body definitely changes, right? But I didn't see much of that and it bothered me a lot.

Was there anything that you learned from English theater?

The "composition" of the story. How the skill of the actor alone does not make a performance. In classical Japanese theater, the structure is not as important. In English theater, their success rate on the average is very high.

Your father has done a lot of performances and lectures around the world. Were you influenced by him to go overseas?

Partly. The only way for me to slow down is to go overseas, so that's why I took off for England. I had a lot of freedom while I was there, which ended the moment I returned. Where did all that freedom go? Here the locations, the plays, the performance times change daily, so the schedule is frantic.

Your free spirit doesn't seem as if it would go well with the constricted world of the traditional arts.

I think the people around me are worried about what I might say, what I might do. I just don't care too much about the iemoto system. I have a lot of self confidence. I do realize that kyogen is responsible for what I am today. But kyogen is not everything; there are other aspects to my life.

Your father went through some very difficult times. He once departed for the modern theater, but eventually returned to the world of kyogen.

Well, in my father's day, kyogen was just an accessory to noh, so it was tough. For myself, I chose kyogen more because I think it fits me than because I enjoy it. I don't even like practice that much even now.

Your grandfather was your first teacher, wasn't he?

That's right. My father thought I had already developed a dependency with him, and parents tend to push their children too hard. But my grandfather was very tough with me, too, yelling and stuff. It wasn't that easy.

While you were still young, your grandfather died and your father became your master. What was that like?

In our world, words of praise are never spoken. You're expected to do well. But they pick out every bad point you've ever done. Of course, in my teens I was pretty rebellious and I'd give it right back to him. Then my father would get really mad and throw his fan at me in the middle of practice. It was pretty scary. I'd dodge the fan and it would puncture the door behind me. The doors of our practice hall were full of holes.

How old were you when you decided to become an actor?

Maybe in my late teens.

So you were over your rebellious period by then.

Of course I was rebellious during puberty. But I have always enjoyed the taste of being on stage. Even when I hated the practice I loved the performance.

Your first performance was at three years old.

That's right. I was a monkey in Utsubozaru. I don't remember anything but the spotlight.

And when that spotlight hit you, you were addicted.

It seems so. I was a monkey that belonged to a monkey trainer. Because I was three, I could do the same moves as a monkey. All I did was dance to some rhythm and jump around. But in doing things like that, the kyogen rhythm gradually and naturally enters you. I always wanted to be someone who could express something, but I didn't think kyogen was the way to do it. I even joined a band when I was in high school, just so I could explode.

What kind of band?

Heavy metal, I guess. My roots were the Beatles, which I got from my mother. Then I started listening to the Police and other British rock. It eventually escalated to heavy metal.

Did you ever think of going into music?

A bit. Then I read somewhere that my grandfather, Manzo VI, was considered one of the world's five greatest actors. I thought then, "Kyogen is one way of expressing yourself." I don't know why it took me so long to realize it. And when I appeared in a film at 17, it opened up a whole new world to me.

How were you chosen by Kurosawa for Ran?

Ran was based on King Lear--and Lear had his jester. So Kurosawa decided to make the jester in Ran a kyogen actor, and my father was the kyogen consultant. Later, when Kurosawa was looking for a blind boy, he asked my father for help in finding a boy about nine from the noh or kyogen worlds. They had some pictures of one boy, which included a photo of him with me on stage, and Kurosawa's eye stopped on me. Because I could act, they decided to give the character more lines and the role expanded.

Did you want to appear in the film?

Yes, especially since it was Kurosawa's. My father was worried that doing something else would affect my kyogen, but Kurosawa asked, so . . . .

What do you mean affect your kyogen?

Change the nature of my acting in a realistic way. Our acting is very different; it's not "real." He was also worried that I might get into something more avant-garde. But he had dallied with avant-garde areas as well. And it's true that the more people become aware of you, the better it is for kyogen. Because of our appearances in film and TV, crowds at the noh theater have increased. But I want them to come to see kyogen, not just to see me.

What does your father mean to you?

He's an incredible person. His influence is so big that it's impossible to define. His attitude towards the stage is so strong. If you've been on the stage as many times as he has, it is very easy to be lazy, but no matter how tired he is, he faces the stage performance with the same focused attitude. There's a lot about him that I'd like to steal.

How many Kyogen actors are there?

There are about 100 registered with the noh association. But only about a third of those are able to make a living. The rest have side jobs, or work as apprentices at one of the houses. In the past, even the actors who belonged to the houses went through some rough times. My great grandfather had to do side jobs. If he didn't take other work, he wouldn't have been able to eat. Unlike England, there is much about the system in Japan that hasn't been modernized or updated. After all, the iemoto system isn't really very businesslike, is it?

Are there any other problems in the world of noh and kyogen beside those you've mentioned?

We don't know how to take time off. And even though there are a lot of actors, there are few very good ones, so naturally they get swamped by the work.

There are that few good actors?

Yes, so the well-known ones are always tired when they're on stage. That's sad. The top level actors, like my father, are all in their 60s and 70s. Seeing how tired they were really hit me upon returning from England. The children of my generation didn't have to work as hard as they did to get recognition. It was just given to us. Even though times have changed, outsiders still have a hard time breaking into the system. In my world, unfortunately, that's still the way things are.

Do you think the traditional, classical arts can appeal to a general audience?

I think the best part of the classical arts is seeing them "live." They are from an age without television, so the actors are very well trained. The voice and movement are impressive and enjoyable. If there is any problem, it is the language and the tempo. The tempo of modern speaking has increased dramatically, and kyogen doesn't use modern Japanese.

Do you have to keep the old language?

Yes, to keep the rhythm. The rhythm collapses if you try using modern Japanese or words that are more easy to understand. You need a lot of courage to try changing that. I try to use the programs to explain difficult words--like a dictionary--and things like that go a long way to solving the problem. I don't want to use earphone guides, because it breaks the live experience.

Will that be enough to narrow the gap?

I said that kyogen was comedy, but if we only rely on laughter, there's no way to beat today's comedians. We have to show our art. As we can't change the tempo, we have to think of how to get people to sit and pay attention to what we do.

What about choosing more modern stories?

The old stories are very sophisticated, so we have to be very careful in introducing new ones. There have been a lot of failures and we can't afford to make mistakes. We have to choose material that will have a long life.

Have you written any plays?

I haven't written any, but I've directed and performed in some. I'm going to do Kobutori, a play by So Kitamura based on an adaptation by Osamu Dazai.

What do you get out of working with people from other genres?

I get new viewpoints and unexpected discoveries. But it's hard to keep a balance. It's good to do new things, but you must perfect your art as well. A classical art is like a rough diamond. The director and the performer have their own views, which carve the stone and give it a new brilliance. That's why the classical arts are so interesting.

What do you want to do now?

I want to do plays. And appear in films. I'm approached a lot, but I want to do something international.

Would you like to appear in another of Kurosawa's films?

Very much. And I don't care whether they're Japanese or foreign, but I want to work with young artists. I have friends in England, and I have dreams of working with them. I was out of Japan for a year, so I want to concentrate first on kyogen. But, in the future, I want to do things that get international attention--like work with Peter Brook.

Do you think of yourself more as a performer than a kyogen actor?

I guess so, though I shouldn't really say that. But I want to do plays using what I've learned in kyogen, not dressing up in kimono and doing Shakespeare in kyogen style. I'd like to be able to keep the Japanese beauty and style and the nonsensical imagination and put them into a well-constructed format, a real Japanese kind of play. That's my dream.